My first thought was about Vonnegut’s choice to make the first chapter Chapter One instead of an introduction. He chose to do that so his readers from the get-go understand: this is not a glorious war story. Not that he needs to be so obvious, Billy is the last thing from a war hero since he immediately wants to be left behind, give up, and die.
There’s an innocent idealism in the characters: just the name “Billy” evokes a child, Weary’s dream of being The Three Musketeers, the university that reaches we’re all equal, etc. In my opinion, there aren’t any villains in Vonnegut’s stories because he doesn’t see humans as villains, period. We’re simple, innocent, and we’re all just farting around.
If we’re talking about the American dream, nothing feels more appropriate than this silly image of war. You go to war, forget whatever happened like Vonnegut did, come back and build a beautiful family in suburbia.
The other point in my head is the nature of time. I think it’s no coincidence that he finally got around to writing his book about Dresden during the Vietnam War. He had to become unstuck in time, look back, and make something of his own war while there was a new one raging. War is past, present, and future. It never ends, it’s still happening.
So it goes. Like you said, it’s a rhetorical shrug, because to actually deal with each death independently is too overwhelming.
Thanks for the comment Tess! I really like your point about him only finally writing his book during the Vietnam War. The parallels to WWII and Dresden, especially with regards to the heavy bombing and use of napalm, definitely point to war's cyclical, inescapable nature. I also wonder if the "past, present, and future" stuff serves a second purpose as well, which is to show that for those experiencing PTSD, like Billy likely is, war is not in the past at all but still very much a real thing that they deal with every day. It is not some isolated incident but has impacts that reach far beyond its present moment.
The point you made about going to war, forgetting, and building a life in suburbia is a powerful one, too. This is one we can see here today with regards to the veterans who fought in the Middle East. We sent these men and women off to fight for causes far less noble than WWII, but since these wars have ended we just expect them to assimilate back into society. These wars that defined the years during which we grew up have been largely forgotten and superseded by the issues of today, but they remain defining moments for the people experiencing physical disabilities or trauma because of their experiences fighting in them (and of course for all of the people whose countries were invaded).
I think you're spot on. As individuals we're equal, we're innocent, we just want to live simple lives, yet we are still swept up into horrors over which we have no control. Our disregard of life is a part of human nature that is difficult to come to grips with, even more so for those who actually witness and experience such atrocities, so instead we opt for detachment and fatalism.
First time posting. Hello. Scattered thoughts on some of the points made, but i'll do my best to keep them somewhat orderly.
Starting off, I'll be vulnerable and say I did not know what the bombing of Dresdan was. Looking it up and seeing it was an attack where the justification was called into question does sadly remind me of drone stikes of the past./I liked that flourish from him as well and i do think time has an incedible ability to nomalize and water down events such as war, but i also think part of that juxtaposition, along with the "so it goes", has to with compartmentalizing the bombing and the war. This isn't an easy thing to comment on given I've never had to experience war, but with something like being in a city that is being firebombed where a mass of horrible things is happening all aound you, caring or holding onto it can drive a man mad. It may be easier to say "he has a good life now. so it goes". Instead of fighting the current, just swimming with the stream./ I also thought the line about a glacier being easier to stop than a war./ Something that came to mind about the woman pressing him to get a statement and the media enironment today of "how can we get eyes on a story" is just how long thats been going on. There's an old sitcom from the 80's and 90's that made a joke about this that could unfortunatley get a laugh today./ Something i took away from his talk with o'hare in the kitchen, his wife bringing up John Wayne, and even American Sniper is (I don't think this is the word i'm looking for, but i'm drawing a blank) how war can be glamorized or the idea we have of war from media. Frank Sinatra and John Wayne as the heroic handsome soldiers beating down the enemy and even the idea of the classy, cozy paneled room where the old soldiers trade war stories feels like its ripped right out of an Oscar nominee.Reality is far less glamourous and far worse./ "Does the best art grow out of hardship and trauma?" Damn...Art that comes from hardship and trauma may not be the best art depending on how you define it, but I think it stays with people more than most. I believe that (most) people are good. Everyone has some form of suffering they can look at and feel sympathy./ I do think it's human nature to look back and i think we should. learning fom the past can help shape the future./I'm very happy to hear you like Hadesrown as I do too:) My GOD Amber grey's voice!/What I pulled fom the gift shop line was buying some sot of order to life from useless puchases./ I liked the farm dog as well. Again it reminded me of the diffeence between the reality of a war, and what we often get shown./ The bulletproof bible. The part of World War Two that really facinates me is the propoganda and the mindset of the country back then. It made me feel like it was drilled into Weary that "God and country are going to see you through" and he bought into it.
Alright thats all I have for now. I'm sure more will come in space.
Thanks for the comment Jimmy! I really like your point about compartmentalizing the war because its reality is too difficult to confront. It seems to be exactly that. I wonder if the Tralfamadorians, who we haven't seen much of yet, could be a hallucination in part because of this compartmentalization, these memories that have not yet been fully reckoned with asserting themselves in unhealthy ways.
Glad you're touching upon all of the war glamorization as well. The moments about Sinatra and Wayne and the trading of stories versus the actual reality of "babies" fighting and the men not having anything profound to say about the fighting definitely points to this. How it's not only not glamorous but something so devastating that it's impossible to put into words.
The Hadestown line was a self-indulgent little detail that I didn't think anyone would comment on so I'm so glad you agree! Amber Gray is fantastic. It's one of my favorite musicals ever, second only to Hamilton.
My first thought was about Vonnegut’s choice to make the first chapter Chapter One instead of an introduction. He chose to do that so his readers from the get-go understand: this is not a glorious war story. Not that he needs to be so obvious, Billy is the last thing from a war hero since he immediately wants to be left behind, give up, and die.
There’s an innocent idealism in the characters: just the name “Billy” evokes a child, Weary’s dream of being The Three Musketeers, the university that reaches we’re all equal, etc. In my opinion, there aren’t any villains in Vonnegut’s stories because he doesn’t see humans as villains, period. We’re simple, innocent, and we’re all just farting around.
If we’re talking about the American dream, nothing feels more appropriate than this silly image of war. You go to war, forget whatever happened like Vonnegut did, come back and build a beautiful family in suburbia.
The other point in my head is the nature of time. I think it’s no coincidence that he finally got around to writing his book about Dresden during the Vietnam War. He had to become unstuck in time, look back, and make something of his own war while there was a new one raging. War is past, present, and future. It never ends, it’s still happening.
So it goes. Like you said, it’s a rhetorical shrug, because to actually deal with each death independently is too overwhelming.
Thanks for the comment Tess! I really like your point about him only finally writing his book during the Vietnam War. The parallels to WWII and Dresden, especially with regards to the heavy bombing and use of napalm, definitely point to war's cyclical, inescapable nature. I also wonder if the "past, present, and future" stuff serves a second purpose as well, which is to show that for those experiencing PTSD, like Billy likely is, war is not in the past at all but still very much a real thing that they deal with every day. It is not some isolated incident but has impacts that reach far beyond its present moment.
The point you made about going to war, forgetting, and building a life in suburbia is a powerful one, too. This is one we can see here today with regards to the veterans who fought in the Middle East. We sent these men and women off to fight for causes far less noble than WWII, but since these wars have ended we just expect them to assimilate back into society. These wars that defined the years during which we grew up have been largely forgotten and superseded by the issues of today, but they remain defining moments for the people experiencing physical disabilities or trauma because of their experiences fighting in them (and of course for all of the people whose countries were invaded).
I think you're spot on. As individuals we're equal, we're innocent, we just want to live simple lives, yet we are still swept up into horrors over which we have no control. Our disregard of life is a part of human nature that is difficult to come to grips with, even more so for those who actually witness and experience such atrocities, so instead we opt for detachment and fatalism.
Thanks again for joining the discussion!!
First time posting. Hello. Scattered thoughts on some of the points made, but i'll do my best to keep them somewhat orderly.
Starting off, I'll be vulnerable and say I did not know what the bombing of Dresdan was. Looking it up and seeing it was an attack where the justification was called into question does sadly remind me of drone stikes of the past./I liked that flourish from him as well and i do think time has an incedible ability to nomalize and water down events such as war, but i also think part of that juxtaposition, along with the "so it goes", has to with compartmentalizing the bombing and the war. This isn't an easy thing to comment on given I've never had to experience war, but with something like being in a city that is being firebombed where a mass of horrible things is happening all aound you, caring or holding onto it can drive a man mad. It may be easier to say "he has a good life now. so it goes". Instead of fighting the current, just swimming with the stream./ I also thought the line about a glacier being easier to stop than a war./ Something that came to mind about the woman pressing him to get a statement and the media enironment today of "how can we get eyes on a story" is just how long thats been going on. There's an old sitcom from the 80's and 90's that made a joke about this that could unfortunatley get a laugh today./ Something i took away from his talk with o'hare in the kitchen, his wife bringing up John Wayne, and even American Sniper is (I don't think this is the word i'm looking for, but i'm drawing a blank) how war can be glamorized or the idea we have of war from media. Frank Sinatra and John Wayne as the heroic handsome soldiers beating down the enemy and even the idea of the classy, cozy paneled room where the old soldiers trade war stories feels like its ripped right out of an Oscar nominee.Reality is far less glamourous and far worse./ "Does the best art grow out of hardship and trauma?" Damn...Art that comes from hardship and trauma may not be the best art depending on how you define it, but I think it stays with people more than most. I believe that (most) people are good. Everyone has some form of suffering they can look at and feel sympathy./ I do think it's human nature to look back and i think we should. learning fom the past can help shape the future./I'm very happy to hear you like Hadesrown as I do too:) My GOD Amber grey's voice!/What I pulled fom the gift shop line was buying some sot of order to life from useless puchases./ I liked the farm dog as well. Again it reminded me of the diffeence between the reality of a war, and what we often get shown./ The bulletproof bible. The part of World War Two that really facinates me is the propoganda and the mindset of the country back then. It made me feel like it was drilled into Weary that "God and country are going to see you through" and he bought into it.
Alright thats all I have for now. I'm sure more will come in space.
Thanks for the comment Jimmy! I really like your point about compartmentalizing the war because its reality is too difficult to confront. It seems to be exactly that. I wonder if the Tralfamadorians, who we haven't seen much of yet, could be a hallucination in part because of this compartmentalization, these memories that have not yet been fully reckoned with asserting themselves in unhealthy ways.
Glad you're touching upon all of the war glamorization as well. The moments about Sinatra and Wayne and the trading of stories versus the actual reality of "babies" fighting and the men not having anything profound to say about the fighting definitely points to this. How it's not only not glamorous but something so devastating that it's impossible to put into words.
The Hadestown line was a self-indulgent little detail that I didn't think anyone would comment on so I'm so glad you agree! Amber Gray is fantastic. It's one of my favorite musicals ever, second only to Hamilton.
Thanks again for the participation!!